Greek Government Press Briefing, 00-06-07

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From: The Hellenic Ministry of Press & Mass Media <http://www.minpress.gr/>

YPOYRGEIO TYPOY & MESWN MAZIKHS ENHMERWSHS

Aqhna, 7 Ioynioy 2000

JENOY TYPOY APO TON YPOYRGO TYPOY & MESWN MAZIKHS ENHMERWSHS KAI KYBERNHTIKO EKPROSWPO DHMHTRH REPPA

Geia sas.

Opws exoyme anakoinwsei, th xwra mas episkeptetai o Ispanos Prwqypoyrgos Xose Maria Aqnar. Ayth thn wra einai se ejelijh h synanthsh kai oi syzhthseis me thn ellhnikh antiproswpeia, ypo ton Prwqypoyrgo. Oi dyo politikoi qa proboyn, argotera, peripoy stis 13.30, se dhlwseis. Qa akoloyqhsei paraqesh geymatos pros ton jeno epishmo, sto Megaro Majimoy. Pisteyoyme oti oi synomilies aytes einai poly xrhsimes, doqentos oti kai oi dyo xwres einai melh ths E.E. kai malista toy legomenoy eyrwpaikoy Notoy. Oi politikes mas sygkliseis einai para polles, se diaforoys tomeis. Pantote h synergasia twn dyo xwrwn exei idiaitero endiaferon.

Akoyw tis erwthseis sas.

KARELIAS: Meta tis xqesines ejelijeis sto metwpo twn taytothtwn, h kybernhsh antimetwpizei thn Ekklhsia ws en dynamei politiko antipalo;

REPPAS: Qa moy epitrecete na pw oti den tiqetai apo thn pleyra mas qema arnhshs toy dialogoy me thn Ekklhsia. Gnwrizete poly kala oti, asfalws, opws tonisa ki egw, qema synanthshs ekproswpwn ths Ierarxias me ton Prwqypoyrgo, antimetwpizetai. Den teqhke, omws, tetoio qema mias synanthshs, genikws kai aoristws. To qema to opoio teqhke apo thn pleyra ths Ierarxias, htan qema synanthshs th sygkekrimenh hmera kai wra kai katw apo sygkekrimenes synqhkes. Se ayth thn peristash, mesoyshs ths synedriashs ths Ierarxias ths Ekklhsias ths Elladas, h kybernhsh ekrine oti einai protimotero h synanthsh na ginei gia logariasmo ths, me ton armodio Ypoyrgo Eqnikhs Paideias kai Qrhskeymatwn, pragma poy arnhqhke h Ierarxia. Ara, loipon, gia na apokatasthsoyme thn alhqeia, den tiqetai qema arnhshs apo thn pleyra ths kybernhshs. H pleyra ths Ierarxias einai ekeinh, h opoia arnhqhke th synanthsh kai to dialogo me thn kybernhsh, epeidh akribws eixe epilejei h idia kai epiqymoyse synanthsh me ton Prwqypoyrgo kai oxi me allon ekproswpo ths kybernhshs, kata thn periptwsh ayth armodio. Alla, opws h kybernhsh den qa orisei toys ekproswpoys ths Ierarxias, sto plaisio twn synergasiwn me thn kybernhsh, etsi kai h Ierarxia den einai dynato na orisei poioi qa einai aytoi poy sto plaisio twn eswterikwn leitoyrgiwn ths kybernhshs, kaqe fora, qa syzhtoyn me thn Ierarxia. Kai, pantws, aytos o opoios einai o basikos kai staqeros synomilhths ths Ierarxias gia qemata ta opoia exoyn sxesh me th synergasia Politeias-Ekklhsias einai o armodios Ypoyrgos Paideias kai Qrhskeymatwn. Ayto prepei na einai safes, gia na apokatasthsoyme ta pragmata. Den yparxei, loipon, arnhsh synanthshs h dialogoy apo thn pleyra mas. Antiqetws, oi portes toy Ypoyrgoy Paideias einai anoiktes kai pisteyoyme oti opws pantote, etsi twra, etsi kai sto mellon, qa prepei h epikoinwnia, o dialogos, h synergasia na einai diarkhs. Ayth einai h dikh mas epilogh.

Oson afora thn erwthsh sas, tonizw oti den antimetwpizoyme thn Ekklhsia ws politiko synomilhth h ws politiko antipalo. H Ekklhsia askei ta pneymatika kai koinwnika kaqhkonta ths. Oi roloi Politeias kai Ekklhsias einai diakritoi. H Ierarxia exei shmantika kaqhkonta. Metajy twn allwn kai ayto poy afora th dioikhsh ths Ekklhsias ths Elladas. Qemata ta opoia exoyn koino endiaferon, asfalws, prepei na syzhthqoyn. Den mporei, omws, na apotelesoyn antikeimeno syzhthshs, sto plaisio ayths ths synergasias, qemata gia ta opoia thn apokleistikh armodiothta exei h Politeia kai monon ayth.

PAPADOPOYLOS: Gia na plhroforhqoyme, giati toylaxiston egw den to jerw, epeidh anafereste stoys diakritoys roloys Politeias-Ekklhsias, to prwtokollo ti leei sthn prokeimenh periptwsh: O k. Shmiths an zhthsei akroash h na synanthqei me ton Arxiepiskopo, mporei na toy pei, den se dexomai, phgaine ston Prwtosygkelo;

REPPAS: Asfalws, qa yparjei synennohsh kai qa oristei sygkekrimenh hmera kai wra, thn opoia qa symfwnhsoyn kai oi dyo pleyres, opws epishs qa symfwnhsoyn kai gia to antikeimeno ayths ths synanthshs.

KARGOYDH: An enqymoymai kalws, thn prohgoymenh ebdomada o Arxiepiskopos eixe anaballei mia synanthsh poy eixe oristei me ton k. Eyqymioy, gia meta th synedriash ths Ieras Synodoy, th xqesinh. Stis xqesines diaboyleyseis, rwthqhke apo thn pleyra toy Ypoyrgoy Paideias, pws akribws diamorfwqhke h nea qesh toy Arxiepiskopoy; Dhladh, ayth h ekkremothta pws apanthqhke apo thn pleyra toy Arxiepiskopoy;

REPPAS: O Ypoyrgos Paideias, kat` entolhn toy Prwqypoyrgoy, apeyqynqhke stoys ekproswpoys ths Ierarxias kai prosferqhke na synomilhsei mazi toys, gia ta qemata poy apasxoloyn thn Ekklhsia ths Elladas. H protash ayth den etyxe opoiasdhpote apanthshs. Ara, loipon, h synanthsh den egine. Enqymeisqe poly kala oti kai palaiotera, eprokeito na ginei ayth h synanthsh. Htan, sygkekrimena, antapodosh apo thn pleyra toy Makariotatoy Arxiepiskopoy ths episkechs poy eixe kanei pros ayton o neos, tote, Ypoyrgos Eqnikhs Paideias kai Qrhskeymatwn. H synanthsh ayth den egine, paramenei ekkremhs. Elpizoyme na ginei.

GARGALAKOS: Eipate oti prosferqhke o Ypoyrgos Paideias na milhsei me thn Ekklhsia kai gia to qema ayto to sygkekrimeno, twn taytothtwn;

REPPAS: To plaisio mias tetoias synanthshs kai syzhthshs eixe aposafhnistei apo thn prwth stigmh. Eixa milhsei ki egw ep` aytoy, pragma to opoio ekane kai o Ypoyrgos Eqnikhs Paideias kai Qrhskeymatwn. Gia na mhn yparxoyn paranohseis.

MIXAHL: Eiste se qesh, ws ekproswpos ths kybernhshs, na diabebaiwsete ton ellhniko lao kai thn Ierarxia oti den protiqeste na anatrecete ola ayta poy kata thn Ierarxia synistoyn thn orqodojh ellhnikh pisth, dhladh, den qa bgalete ta qrhskeytika apo to sxoleio, den qa ``jhlwsete'' mhtropolites, den qa allajete to orio kai genika den qa ``aporqodojopoihsete'', na to pw etsi, th xwra, opws fobatai h Ierarxia kai leei sta anakoinwqenta ths, kai xqes kai thn prohgoymenh fora;

REPPAS: Pisteyoyme oti mporei na katartistei mia atzenta qematwn poy qa apotelesei antikeimeno syzhthshs ths Politeias, ths kybernhshs sygkekrimena, me toys ekproswpoys ths Ierarxias. H atzenta ayth mporei na perilambanei, metajy twn allwn, qemata poy exoyn sxesh me ta erga anaptyjhs, gia ta opoia qelei na analabei prwtoboylies h Ekklhsia. Qemata poy exoyn sxesh me thn ekklhsiastikh ekpaideysh, qemata poy exoyn sxesh me ton eksygxronismo aponomhs ths ekklhsiastikhs dikaiosynhs. Paramenw se orismena paradeigmata kai monon. Ara, loipon, yparxei pedio gia synanthsh kai syzhthsh metajy kybernhshs kai Ierarxias. Ayto to opoio einai safes -den einai h prwth fora twra poy to leme- einai toyto: H Politeia kai sygkekrimena h kybernhsh, kat` entolhn toy laoy, askei ta kaqhkonta ths, sto plaisio twn oswn to Syntagma kai oi nomoi toy kratoys problepoyn. H Ierarxia, bebaiws, exei to diko ths diakrito rolo, o opoios einai apolytws sebastos, alla bebaiws den einai dynato na epitrecoyme opoiadhpote sygxysh, h opoia odhgei se paranohseis kai se parenergeies, me o,ti ayto synepagetai.

MIXAHL: Epitrecte moy na epimeinw. Katanow plhrws th qesh sas gyrw apo ti mporei na syzhthqei. Mas anaferate kai kapoia paradeigmata. Omws, fainetai oti h Ierarxia qelei na exei gnwmh kai gia ola ta qemata, poy kata th dikh ths ektimhsh, empiptoyn se ayto poy leme orqodojh pisth. Eseis apo th meria sas, exete kamia proqesh ayta ta qemata na ta anatrecete; Giati lene oti o ypoyrgos Dikaiosynhs, oysiastika mphke, opws mphke, kata tis dhlwseis toy Prwqypoyrgoy, kai anoije ta qemata giati meta qa akoloyqhsoyn kai alla, qa janakoloyqhsoyn kai alla, kai panta h Orqodojia poy qa brisketai se diwjh kai synepws, payoyme na eimaste Orqodojoi.

REPPAS: Poio einai to qema poy qetete; Oti prepei na kanoyme prokatabolikws agwnes gia kati poy qewreitai oti eperxetai, xwris ayto omws na einai akomh orato;

MIXAHL: An mporeite eseis na mas diabebaiwsete oti den htan dikh sas proqesh, qemata poy, opws lete, qelei h Ekklhsia na exei gnwmh, na toys aifnidiasete jana@

REPPAS: H Ekklhsia mporei na exei gnwmh. Kai o poliths mporei na exei th gnwmh toy gia opoiodhpote qema. Dikaioytai kai nomimopoieitai na ekfrazei ayth th gnwmh toy eleyqera. H Ekklhsia, asfalws mporei na exei gnwmh kai na ekfrazei th gnwmh ayth gia kaqe qema. Oydeis mporei na periorisei to dikaiwma ayto twn ekproswpwn ths Ekklhsias. Apo thn allh, h kybernhsh exei analabei sygkekrimena kaqhkonta kat` entolhn toy ellhnikoy laoy. Qa askhsei ayta ta kaqhkonta kai to qema to opoio antimetwpizoyme sth sygkekrimenh periptwsh poy einai poly eidiko. Afora ena dhmosio eggrafo kai sygkekrimena to astynomiko deltio anagnwrishs toy polith kai ta stoixeia ta opoia prepei na perilambanontai se ayto. Tipote allo. Den antimetwpizoyme, loipon, kapoio allo qema, ayth thn periodo, wste na dikaiologeitai ayth h katakrish, ayth h epiqesh enantion ths kybernhshs apo kykloys ths Ierarxias ths Ekklhsias ths Elladas.

KAPPOS: H kybernhsh, peran apo thn opoia synanthsh qa yparjei anamesa ston Prwqypoyrgo kai ton Arxiepiskopo, me bash thn atzenta poy qelei h kybernhsh kai thn kalh proetoimasia, h erwthsh den einai kaqoloy filologikh, h kybernhsh poios qewrei oti einai, gia na xrhsimopoihsw enan adokimo oro, o ``isoychs'' qesmikos paragontas, o opoios milaei me thn Ekklhsia, kalytera me thn Ierarxia kai ton Arxiepiskopo. Einai o Prwqypoyrgos h o ypoyrgos Paideias;

REPPAS: Kanete ena laqos. Apanthsa prin. Asfalws, einai o Prwqypoyrgos, poy paramenei sth diaqesh toy Arxiepiskopoy kai ths Ierarxias. Alla, ayto, opws eipa kai xqes, qa antimetwpistei sto plaisio toy programmatos toy Prwqypoyrgoy, an diatypwqei ws aithma. Ayto to opoio ekdhlwqhke xqes, htan to endiaferon ths Ierarxias na synanthqoyn ekproswpoi ths th sygkekrimenh wra, ths sygkekrimenhs hmeras, me ton Prwqypoyrgo. Kriqhke protimotero h synanthsh ayth na ginei me ton armodio ypoyrgo Eqnikhs Paideias kai Qrhskeymatwn, xwris emeis na parembainoyme sta eswterika ths Ierarxias kai na epilegoyme aytoys oi opoioi qa thn ekproswphsoyn. H Ierarxia qa mporoyse na steilei ston ypoyrgo Paideias sygkekrimenoys ekproswpoys ths, toys opoioys h idia qa eixe epilejei. Exei ayto to dikaiwma. Paramenoyme, loipon, se ayth th qesh.

KAPPOS: Kai h deyterh erwthsh moy, anaferetai jana sto qema twn taytothtwn. Qelw na ginei safes. To legomeno systhma, o kwdikas, en pash periptwsei, back code, qa yparxei stis taytothtes; To lew gia ena sygkekrimeno logo. Epeidh yparxei ena paradeigma poly sygkekrimeno, oti oi nees taytothtes, tis opoies qa paralaboyn oi astynomikoi, kai malista anejarthta apo to an yparxei h den yparxei qrhskeyma se aytes tis sygkekrimenes taytothtes, exoyn zhthqei apo toys astynomikoys apanthseis se mia seira erwthmatologiwn apiqanwn proswpikwn dedomenwn.

REPPAS: Gnwrizete poly kala oti o typos toy deltioy anagnwrishs toy polith, to opoio qa ekdidetai mexri na fqasoyme sto koino eyrwpaiko eggrafo, qa einai akribws o idios me ton typo o opoios xrhsimopoieitai kai shmera. Aplws -ayth einai h apofash kai h epilogh- den qa kalyptontai, den qa symplhrwnontai ta sygkekrimena stoixeia poy aforoyn eyaisqhta proswpika dedomena. Tipote allo se sxesh me ta deltia anagnwrishs.

KAPPOS: Sth synexeia, otan qa yparjei ayto to eniaio, to eyrwpaiko eggrafo@;

REPPAS: Ayto einai kati to opoio qa apofasistei apo koinoy. Oi armodies yphresies ergazontai pros ayth thn kateyqynsh. Den yparxei kati sygkekrimeno ayth thn wra.

TAKHS: An telikws, xqes, ginotan ayth h synanthsh toy Prwqypoyrgoy me ton Arxiepiskopo, pisteyete oti qa eixan akyrwqei ta dyo syllalhthria poy telikws apofasise h Ierarxia; Kai an ayto einai qetiko, tote mhpws @

REPPAS: Ayto einai mia ypoqesh. Mporei na mhn eixe prokycei h anagkh twn syllalhthriwn an eixe ginei h synanthsh me ton armodio ypoyrgo Eqnikhs Paideias kai Qrhskeymatwn. Alla, tetoies ypoqeseis mporoyme na kanoyme polles. H pragmatikothta, omws, einai oti h Ierarxia proxwrhse se mia tetoia prwtoboylia, h opoia pisteyoyme oti den synadei me ton pneymatiko rolo ths.

TAKHS: Ayta ta dyo syllalhthria sas anhsyxoyn, ws pros thn eikona poy qa doqei pros ta ejw kai ws pros tis metepeita antidraseis, meta apo th diejagwgh toys;

REPPAS: Gnwrizete poly kala oti sthn Ellada oloi oi polites exoyn to dikaiwma na ekfrazoyn eleyqera tis pepoiqhseis toys. Opoios drasthriopoieitai sto plaisio toy Syntagmatos kai twn nomwn toy kratoys, mporei eleyqera, akwlyta kai anempodista na drasthriopoieitai. Oyden problhma prokyptei. Kaqenas, bebaiws, mporei na krinetai gia tis epiloges toy h tis prwtoboylies toy. Ayto, omws, einai ena allo politiko zhthma.

MPEKAS: Yparxei politikos sxediasmos gia na ginei ypoxrewtikos o politikos gamos;

REPPAS: Den mas exei apasxolhsei kan tetoio qema.

STAMATOPOYLOS: Se periptwsh synanthshs ths Ierarxias me ton ypoyrgo Paideias, o,ti syzhthsoyn kai o,ti apofasisoyn, desmeyei ton Prwqypoyrgo;

REPPAS: O Ypoyrgos Paideias einai ypoyrgos ths kybernhshs. Gnwrizete poly kala, loipon, oti o dialogos aytos exei enan tetoio xarakthra, wste oi opoies apofaseis na desmeyoyn thn kybernhsh.

STAMATOPOYLOS: Giati yparxei kai to prohgoymeno, oti alla eipe o ypoyrgos Paideias kai alla eipe o Prwqypoyrgos meta sth Boylh.

REPPAS: Ayth einai dikh sas ekdoxh. Einai mia ekdoxh thn opoia paroysiazoyn kapoioi ek ths Ierarxias. H ekdoxh ths kybernhshs einai diaforetikh. O ypoyrgos Paideias metefere akribws th qesh oti ayto to qema apotelei qema armodiothtas ths Politeias kai monon. Kai asfalws, einai sth diaqesh ths Ierarxias gia syzhthsh allwn qematwn poy empiptoyn sta kaqhkonta kai tis armodiothtes ths Ekklhsias ths Elladas.

STAMATOPOYLOS: Kai tote, toys eixe yposxeqei dialogo.

REPPAS: Ayth einai h dikh sas ekdoxh, epanalambanw.

STAMATOPOYLOS: Ayto lene aytoi.

REPPAS: Wraia, ayto sas lew. Ayth einai h mia ekdoxh, loipon. Mh dexeste oti ayth h ekdoxh einai aparaithtws kai h alhqinh.

GARGALAKOS: Meta tis xqesines ejelijeis, bghke shmera enas ekproswpos ths Ekklhsias kai sxoliase thn arnhsh toy Prwqypoyrgoy na dexqei, th sygkekrimenh wra kai mera, ekproswpoys ths Ierarxias, me tis ejhs ekfraseis: ``Krybetai o Prwqypoyrgos'', ``prajh deilias'', ``asebeia pros thn Ekklhsia'', ``den qa meinoyme mono sto syllalhthrio, qa proxwrhsoyme kai parapera'' k.t.l. Qelete na sxoliasete ayto to klima;

REPPAS: Den qa parasyrqoyme se ena tetoio dialogo, me ojeis tonoys, me prajeis oi opoies dhmioyrgoyn arnhtika protypa kai apoteloyn paradeigma pros apofygh.

PAPADOPOYLOS: Jeroyme oloi oti mas baptisan, xwris na mas rwthsoyn, kai oloi mas exoyme mia taytothta me X.O. anagrafomeno epanw. To idio pisteyw na exei kai o k. Shmiths. Mporeite eseis, ws ekproswpos ths kybernhshs, na mas peite se poio qrhskeyma anhkei o k. Shmiths, shmera;

REPPAS: Gnwrizete poly kala oti gia logoys sebasmoy enos plaisioy, to opoio exei chfisei h Boylh twn Ellhnwn kai me th dikh mas chfo, den einai dynato na syzhtoyme dhmosiws tetoia qemata.

PAPADOPOYLOS: Den einai dhmosiws.

REPPAS: Bebaiws, einai dhmosiws. Sto plaisio ths politikhs enhmerwshs ginetai h syzhthsh. Mporei na mh ginetai syzhthsh se mia plateia, alla ginetai edw gia na metaferqei to ti syzhteitai edw, pros ton ellhniko lao.

PAPADOPOYLOS: Thn eskise thn taytothta toy o k. Shmiths; Apo aythn ejartatai ti einai;

REPPAS: Prepei na pw oti einai eystoxh h parathrhsh poy kanate, ypo thn ennoia, oti oloi -oi perissoteroi toylaxiston- eimaste melh ths Ekklhsias, Ara, loipon, den dikaiologeitai, aytoy toy eidoys, h diairetikh prospaqeia thn opoia epixeiroyn kapoioi apo thn pleyra ths Ierarxias.

PAPADOPOYLOS: Polloi exoyn diaforetikh apoch. Ayto einai typiko.

REPPAS: Alla, den syzhtoyme ayto to qema twra.

PAPADOPOYLOS: Dhladh, den exw ws poliths to dikaiwma na gnwrizw oti o Prwqypoyrgos poy chfisa an einai boydisths, mwameqanos, moysoylmanos, kaqolikos, xristianos; protestanths; Ti chfisa;

REPPAS: Ayto afora thn proswpikh zwh, ton eswteriko kosmo toy kaqe polith. Gnwrizete poly kala oti h taytothta poy exei o Prwqypoyrgos einai h taytothta poy exete ki eseis, h opoia perilambanei ta sygkekrimena stoixeia.

PAPADOPOYLOS: Ayto sas to eipa egw. Isxyei, omws, ayto;

REPPAS: Asfalws isxyei. Apolytws, isxyei. Oles oi taytothtes isxyoyn.

PAPADOPOYLOS: Dhladh, einai Xristianos Orqodojos;

REPPAS: Gnwrizete poly kala oti, apo th mia, mporw na apanthsw poly eykola me ena ``nai''! . Apo thn allh, omws, qa pagideyomoyn sth syzhthsh enos qematos, to opoio exoyme apofasisei na to qesoyme ektos pedioy dhmosias syzhthshs, epeidh akribws afora eyaisqhta proswpika dedomena. Me ayth thn ennoia, qewrw oti den mporei na proxwrhsei mia tetoia syzhthsh. Giati qa epidoqoyme se ena kynhgi magisswn, anaferomenoi se dhmosia proswpa, zhtwntas na gnwrisoyme qemata, ta opoia aforoyn tis pepoiqhseis, ta fronhmata toys. Nomizw oti ayto den prepei na to kanoyme.

PAPADOPOYLOS: Parakalw poly. Den exw tetoia armodiothta, oyte proqesh. Ekeino poy rwthsa -kai einai to aytonohto bebaiws, alla, shmera dystyxws zhtoyme na ejhghsoyme ta aytonohta, sygxwreste me gi ayto- einai pws jerw oti einai eksygxronisths, sosialisths kai to leme kai to yposthrizoyme kai maxomaste gi ayto; Sygnwmh, ayto den einai ena dedomeno ths proswpikothtas toy;

REPPAS: Nai, alla den apotelei stoixeio, to opoio katagrafetai sto astynomiko deltio anagnwrishs , to politiko fronhma. Me ayth thn ennoia, to politiko fronhma eseis to symperainetai apo thn politikh drasthriothta poy anaptyssei ena atomo kai o Prwqypoyrgos.

PAPADOPOYLOS: Ara, mporw na ejagw to symperasma kai apo tis prajeis toy, oti den einai Xristianos Orqodojos;

REPPAS: Ma, den yparxoyn prajeis apo tis opoies kapoios mporei na bgalei ena tetoio symperasma. Giati ean qelete na milhsoyme gia tis prajeis pollwn, oi opoioi prwtostatoyn stoys agwnes yper ths Orqodojias, qa bgaloyme symperasmata kaqoloy kolakeytika. Alla, kaqe allo para mporei na pei kaneis oti aytoi einai kai ta qetika protypa ths Orqodojhs ellhnikhs Ekklhsias.

PAPADOPOYLOS: Den qa diafwnhsw gia ta paradeigmata poy lete. Alla, na to ejeidikeysoyme sto prokeimeno.

REPPAS: Apanthsa s` ayto prin.

PAPADOPOYLOS: Ti apanthsate;

REPPAS: Htan safhs h apanthsh moy. Eipa oti qa htan eykolo na sas pw ``nai'' gia na eiste ikanopoihmenos. Apo thn allh, omws, den qa mpw se ayth th syzhthsh, epeidh tote qa pagideytw sth syzhthsh qematwn, ta opoia einai ektos pedioy dhmosias syzhthshs.

PAPADOPOYLOS: Epeidh to anaferate ki eseis, moy dinete to enaysma na synexisw kai na dieykrinisw kati. Eipate oti xarakthrizetai apo th symperifora toy. Kai lew egw: h en logw stash toy k. Shmith einai ayth poy orioqeteitai apo to X.O. poy exei sthn taytothta toy;

REPPAS: Se ola ayta ta qemata exw, hdh, apanthsei. Den qa metatrapoyme se iera ejetash.

TAKHS: Eipate prin, k. Ypoyrge, oti den qa apanthsete stoys ojeis tonoys poy arqrwnoyn oi iereis. Omws, yparxoyn kai boyleytes- melh toy PASOK, oi opoioi lene oti ston polemo Ekklhsias-Politeias qa bgei nikhths h Ekklhsia, o,ti kai na ginei. Kai to lene ayto pros kaqe kateyqynsh kai me kaqe tropo. Me aytoys toys boyleytes ti qa kanete;

REPPAS: Einai h apoch toys. Gnwrizete poly kala oti oi boyleytes exoyn eklegei apo ton ellhniko lao, toy opoioy h etymhgoria einai apolytws sebasth apo oloys. Einai dynaton na periorisoyme to dikaiwma toy boyleyth na anaptyjei tis apoceis toy;

TAKHS: Alla lew. An, loipon, se ayto ton ypotiqemeno polemo Ekklhsias-Politeias, oi boyleytes toy PASOK paroyn thn pleyra ths ekklhsias, yparxei kapoio qema gia to PASOK;

REPPAS: Egw gnwrizw oti den yparxei polemos kai den prepei na kanoyme tetoies ypoqeseis. Den yparxei kan ypoqetikos polemos. Kai gnwrizw, epishs, akomh perissotero oti h Koinoboyleytikh Omada toy PASOK einai sympaghs kai sthrizei thn kybernhsh, prokeimenoy ayth na oloklhrwsei me epityxia to ergo poy ths aneqese o ellhnikos laos.

KAPPOS: Apo thn apanthsh sthn erwthsh poy ekane o k. Papadopoylos, qelw na proekteinw sto ejhs: To gegonos oti den qelete na dwsete kapoia stoixeia twn proswpikwn dedomenwn toy Prwqypoyrgoy sth dhmosiothta -einai poly kalo ayto to pragma- kai anaferqhkate sto gegonos oti ayta ta stoixeia den periexontai sto deltio anagnwrishs ths Astynomias. Mporeite na eggyhqeite ws kybernhsh se alla deltia ths Astynomias, ta opoia den einai prospelasima kai prosbasima, den einai taytothtes, dhladh, alla kapoioi fakeloi, den emperiexontai alla stoixeia apolytws proswpikwn dedomenwn politwn h omadwn politwn;

REPPAS: Exei dhmioyrghqei ena neo plaisio. Chfisame ena nomo o opoios tiqetai se efarmogh. Einai epilogh ths kybernhshs na perifroyrhsoyme ta legomena eyaisqhta proswpika dedomena, na mh ginetai epejergasia aytwn twn dedomenwn otan den syntrexei o antistoixos skopos. Den prokeitai, loipon, na ginei opoiodhpote ``fakelwma'', giati ayto ennoeite. Kaqe poliths qa anagnwrizetai apo tis armodies arxes ths politeias, sth bash sygkekrimenwn stoixeiwn, ta opoia prosdiorizontai kaqe fora analogws ths shmasias kai toy proorismoy poy exei ena dhmosio eggrafo. Sto deltio astynomikhs taytothtas h se alla dhmosia eggrafa qa anaferontai ta stoixeia ekeina -kai monon- ta opoia xreiazontai gia na ejyphrethqei o sygkekrimenos skopos. Tipota allo. Otidhpote allo exei sxesh me tis pepoiqhseis, ta fronhmata, tis antilhceis, ton eswteriko kosmo twn politwn, den exei qesh se tetoia dhmosia eggrafa.

MPOTWNHS: Yparxei problhma me thn k. Aggelopoyloy; Dioti oi plhrofories anaferoyn oti apeilei me paraithsh, an den symplhrwqoyn oi qeseis twn triwn melwn kai oti ayto to eqese kai ston Prwqypoyrgo xqes.

REPPAS: Den einai alhqh ayta ta opoia qetete me thn erwthsh sas. Prepei na sas pw oti sthn k. Aggelopoyloy exei anateqei enas poly shmantikos rolos. Prepei na ferei se peras to poly shmantiko ergo ths proetoimasias ths xwras mas enocei ths Olympiadas toy 2004. Pisteyoyme oti qa to kanei me apolyth epityxia.

KALARITHS: Yparxei se kapoia allh xwra ths Eyrwphs, ths Amerikhs, ths Afrikhs h akoma kai ths Asias, to endexomeno o Prwqypoyrgos ths xwras na mhn kanei gnwsto to qrhskeyma toy sto politiko swma poy ton ejeleje; Na qewreitai, dhladh, proswpiko dedomeno kai na mhn anakoinwnetai to qrhskeyma toy arxhgoy toy kratoys;

REPPAS: To qrhskeyma olwn mas einai gnwsto. Apo kei kai pera ayto to opoio den epitrepetai na kanoyme einai na metaferoyme ayth th syzhthsh se allo pedio. Me aformh, loipon, th syzhthsh poy ginetai gia ta proswpika dedomena den prepei na syzhtoyme gia ta epimeroys stoixeia, ta opoia sygkrotoyn thn proswpikothta twn atomwn, mhde ejairoymenoy kai toy Prwqypoyrgoy. Den einai dynaton na kanoyme ayth th syzhthsh, poly perissotero, sto plaisio ths politikhs enhmerwshs. Gia na ikanopoihsoyme poio skopo; Gia na petyxoyme ti; Gia na epidoqoyme se ena kynhgi magisswn. Ayto moy lete telika.

KALARITHS: Oxi, einai dhmosio proswpo.

REPPAS: Kaqe politikos, o opoios ektiqetai me tis apoceis, me th drasthriothta toy, me ta fronhmata toy, krinetai apo ton ellhniko lao. Kai gnwrizete poia krish exei epifylajei gia ton Kwsta Shmith o ellhnikos laos. Einai idiaiterws ikanopoihmenos o Prwqypoyrgos apo thn krish toy ellhnikoy laoy.

PAPADOPOYLOS: Epeidh eiste eyaisqhtos kai anaferate polles fores th frash ``kynhgi magisswn'' mhpws dyskoleyetai etsi kapws h katastash, otan o kaqe poliths empleketai se ypoqeseis; `` O Reppas ti einai re paidia, den jerw'', sygnwmh gia th xrhsimopoihsh toy onomatos, alla eiste ypoyrgos, dhmosio proswpo. ``O Arxhgos Stratoy einai Moysoylmanos''; ``O k. Reppas einai Boydisths, martyras toy Iexwba''; Den mplekoyme se ena xeirotero kynhgi magisswn, otan ayto to proswpiko dedomeno aposiwpoihqei, kai kala kanete eseis ws kybernhsh na to yioqeteite; O aplos poliths, omws, poy den exei prosbash kai oyte th morfwsh kai to diko sas epipedo h ths arxoysas tajhs, otan toy leei p.x.: ``O Karamanlhs ti einai re; Boydisths einai'', den mplekoyme perissotero se ayto to qema, poy einai ena stoixeio dhmosio; Einai men, proswpiko dedomeno, alla, opws leei kai o nomos poy ftiajate, einai sthn apolyth diaqesh toy ypokeimenoy na epitrecei th dhmosiopoihsh toy.

REPPAS: Prwta ap` ola, einai swsto to teleytaio poy eipate kai mono ayto. Apo kei kai pera, syzhtoyme gia ena dhmosio eggrafo, gia to eggrafo ekeino, poy xrhsimopoieitai stis synallages ths Politeias me toys polites.

PAPADOPOYLOS: Ma, den syzhtw gia to eggrafo. To jekaqarisa ayto, den milw gia tis taytothtes. Milw gia thn eyqynh enos dhmosioy proswpoy na aytoprosiorizetai.

REPPAS: Genikws, gnwrizete poly kala oti me mia ``koytsompolistikh'' diaqesh@

PAPADOPOYLOS: Den exw tetoia diaqesh.

REPPAS: Bebaiws. Giati peri aytoy prokeitai -oxi eseis- polloi polites syzhtoyn gia tetoia qemata. Einai kati to opoio panta ginotan kai panta qa ginetai. Alla, den einai ayto to opoio qa kaqorisei, pisteyw, tis epiloges twn politwn. Kai me ayth thn ennoia, kalo einai na mh ginontai aytes oi syzhthseis. O tropos gia na antimetwpisoyme ena tetoio endexomeno, den einai na katagracoyme mexri thn akraia leptomereia, to ti pisteyei kapoios, to ti fronei gia diafora qemata, ti filosofikes antilhceis h pepoiqhseis exei. Me ayth thn ennoia@

PAPADOPOYLOS: Me sygxwreite, egw ton epilegw ws Prwqypoyrgo h ypoyrgo.

REPPAS: Kai exete thn eyqynh ths epiloghs, me bash krithria ta opoia eseis, o kaqe poliths xrhsimopoiei. Oydeis mporei na sterhsei to dikaiwma apo ton polith na kaqorisei thn chfo toy, staqmizontas ola ayta ta dedomena. Oydeis. Kai ferei thn eyqynh twn epilogwn toy o kaqe poliths, gia na kanei kalyterh th zwh toy. Oyte gia na krinei, an kapoios einai chlos h kontos, paxys h ligotero paxys, an pisteyei sto A@ h sto B@ qrhskeyma, an einai opados ths mias h ths allhs aqlhtikhs omadas k.o.k. Pisteyw, oti oi polites epilegoyn toys politikoys na toys ekproswpoyn me tetoio tropo, wste na epitygxanetai, telikws, me to ergo toys h beltiwsh ths zwhs twn politwn kai h proodos ths xwras.

PAPADOPOYLOS: Enas poy krybei, omws, tis apoceis toy@

REPPAS: Oydeis krybei tis apoceis toy.

PAPADOPOYLOS: E, pws! Einai ena proswpiko dedomeno toy opoioy to ypokeimeno, allote to dhmosiopoiei kai allote, kata th dikh toy proairesh@

REPPAS: Mporei na to kanei otan qelei, k. Papadopoyle, alla den qa ton anagkasei to kratos na to kanei, me aformh th symplhrwsh enos dhmosioy eggrafoy, to opoio ejyphretei tis synallages toy polith me tis dhmosies yphresies. Einai allo to ena allo to allo. Opoios poliths qelei na dhlwsei tis apoceis toy, as to kanei. Leme oti o kaqenas einai eleyqeros na ekfrazei tis pepoiqhseis toy. To kratos den qa anagkasei ton polith na anaferei se ena dhmosio eggrafo ayta ta stoixeia, epeidh to kratos qewrei oti ayta ta stoixeia den einai aparaithta, sto plaisio twn synallagwn toy me ton polith.

KAPPOS: Yparxei ena eggrafo ths Dieqnoys Amnhstias, to opoio fantazomai oti to exete ypoch sas, poy anaferetai stis NATOikes drasthriothtes sta Balkania. Kai xrhsimopoioyntai kapoies ekfraseis kritikarontas th drash toy NATO, opws ``dolofonies amaxwn'', ``egklhmata polemoy'' k.lp. Dedomenoy oti h Ellada einai NATOikh xwra, exei o ekproswpos ths kybernhshs, kapoio sxolio se ayth thn Ekqesh;

REPPAS: Pragmati, dinetai sth dhmosiothta ayth h Ekqesh ths Dieqnoys Amnhstias. Exoyn probei se sxetikes dhlwseis oi ekproswpoi toy NATO. Qelw na anaferw th qesh poy exei anaptyjei h Eisaggeleas toy Dieqnoys Poinikoy Dikasthrioy toy OHE h k. Karla ntel Ponte, h opoia, metajy twn allwn, leei oti den yparxei bash, prokeimenoy na ginei ereyna gia thn parabiash twn kanonwn poy qa prepei na throyntai, sth diarkeia enos polemoy. Einai ena poly shmantiko qema. Gnwrizete poia htan h stash ths ellhnikhs kybernhshs. Ellhnika strateymata den eneplakhsan, se polemikes drasthriothtes, ekeinh thn periodo. Sas lew, omws, poia einai h stash ths armodias Eisaggelews.

KAPPOS: H qesh ths kybernhshs;

REPPAS: Einai ayta ta opoia sas eipa.

Sas eyxaristw poly.

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